Fuschia Sirois: 00:00:00

what is it that makes us avoid the thing to do?

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Is it the fault of social media?

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Are we inherently lazy?

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Is there just something wrong with me?

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Well, what if I were nice to myself?

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Would that do something, and

how could I even do that in

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some way that I felt genuine?

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Would that do anything?

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Dear listeners, I've got another

special treat for you today.

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We're joined today by

my special guest, Dr.

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Fuschia Sirois.

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Fuchsia's, a professor in social

and health psychology at Durham

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University with over 25 years of

research in procrastination and

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its relationship to emotions.

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We'd connected actually at the

procrastination conference in Utrecht

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Netherlands in the summer of 2025.

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A lovely city, by the way.

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At the end of one of the, the lectures

sitting in the audience, she had made this

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comment about self-compassion, and that,

self-compassion shows up in recognizing

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responsibility, taking it on, and

maybe the pain that can come with that.

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That that's where self-compassion

really starts to, to shine.

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I thought, I get it.

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This makes sense.

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So later on that day, I approached

her, had a conversation with her,

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and she really had this way of, um.

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Recognizing the importance of

emotion, not just in procrastination,

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which is her field of research,

but really in who we are.

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Again, it really resonated and I said to

myself, I've gotta have her on the show.

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So here we are.

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We had this wonderful conversation

spanning from individual to societal,

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from the creative task, to the

concrete task, and and much more.

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I hope you enjoy as much as I did.

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Here it is.

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Kourosh Dini: today, we've got, uh, uh,

Fuchsia Sirois on the podcast today.

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Am I pronouncing your name

correctly, by the way?

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Fuschia Sirois: Yeah, that's perfect.

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Yeah.

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Kourosh Dini: Oh, wonderful.

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Fuschia, Fuschia I met in, um, uh, at

the, the procrastination conference in

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just, we had recently in 2025 and in

summer, and we may have met even earlier

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that Did you go to the procrastination

conference that was in Chicago?

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I can't remember if you.

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Fuschia Sirois: No, I

didn't get to that one.

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Unfortunately.

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I was sort of in not, I really

wanted to go, but I think I was in

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the middle of moving or something

and I wasn't able to come.

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Kourosh Dini: Ah, okay.

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Very good.

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So this was our first time meeting then.

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Fuscia is a, uh, a, a social health, um,

psychologist at, uh, Durham University.

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Um, and, uh, professor there.

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And, um, what got me going was I,

with, with fuchsia, I think, uh, we

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were sitting at, in a lecture and,

uh, at the procrastination conference,

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and you had said something that just

kind of struck me, which was about the

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relationship between, self-compassion

and recognizing your own responsibility.

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Do, do you remember something about this?

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Fuschia Sirois: I think it, it

was maybe, if I'm remembering the

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correct instance, I think it was

around the idea that, um, with

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self-compassion really doesn't kick in.

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It doesn't actually, it's.

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It's not activated until people are

struggling with something, until they're

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realizing, you know, coming face to face

with their own personal shortcomings

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or, or flaws or difficulties, you know?

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Um, it's not like you walk around

going, oh, I'm being self-compassionate.

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Like that's just.

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You can be self-loving and self

kind, but self-compassion is

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kind of a bigger package, and

it is a response to difficult,

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challenging, stressful situations.

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So as a response, there has

to be something to trigger it.

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Um, yeah

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Kourosh Dini: I love that

way of looking at it.

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Yeah.

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And that's, that's where, uh,

yeah, that's totally what it was.

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And, and I think it was in the context of

that, recognizing personal responsibility,

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recognizing like your own sense of, oh,

I'm, I'm there, there's something about

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this I gotta take on, some charge I gotta

take on, and how difficult that might be.

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And that's where a good component

of that self-compassion kicks in.

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Fuschia Sirois: Right.

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Yeah.

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I see what you mean by responsibility

because yeah, if something.

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Where there's, you know, so

easy when we make a mistake to

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kind of be in denial, right?

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Or to kind of go, yeah, that's not on me.

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That's because of other

circumstances and all that.

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Um, but yeah, once you take

responsibility for it, you're right.

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And kind of go, right, I screwed up.

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Right?

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Or I could have done this differently.

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Kourosh Dini: Yeah.

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Fuschia Sirois: Um, that would've,

would've led to maybe less difficult

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circumstances for myself and others.

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So once you, you're right, when that

responsive part of that is responsibility,

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sometimes not always responsibility,

but that is one way of looking at

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it and the, the acknowledgement of

that responsibility is, is difficult.

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And that can be a good opportunity then

to sort of practice self-compassion

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instead of, you know, often people

do is the other way, which is,

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oh, what's the matter with me?

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I'm, I messed everything up.

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And, you know, going to the

extreme of responsibility, which,

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you know, psychologically, um,

to me is like blame, right?

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Like it's, it's taking, it's going

too far with it to a point where

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you're just sort of wallowing in

those self-critical thoughts, uh,

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for the sake of, of doing that.

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But it's actually not very productive

in terms of changing behavior or coming

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to new realizations about oneself.

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Kourosh Dini: absolutely.

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No.

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That part of you that can really, um.

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Seems to think that we can fix

things, get better about things

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through, uh, through whipping

ourselves in some way, shape, or form.

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You know, like if we just

whipped ourselves hard enough,

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maybe we'll fix it, you know?

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And doesn't seem to work.

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Fuschia Sirois: No, no.

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It backfires and, and, and you know, it

might work for a very small percentage

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of the population, I would suggest.

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I think for many it backfires

and there's also a significant.

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Proportion of the population

for which it, it actually does

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quite, it's quite harmful.

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It backfires and, and, and

sort of can, um, get you into

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a further downward spiral or

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Kourosh Dini: Absolutely.

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And, and the other thing that you bring up

here, and this is all in context of, um.

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Procrastination, but I think it,

it even grows broader than that.

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You know, it's like, it's really about,

um, uh, you know, in the context, one

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of the things I appreciate is this, how

you relate procrastination and, and,

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and that relationship with oneself.

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You know, that, that, um, that

self-compassion idea that, um,

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that something you're, you're

hinting at, there is that habitual

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aspect of beating yourself up.

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That, that like.

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You really need to, uh, there's a practice

in catching yourself in doing that, and

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then trying to figure out, okay, now what?

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Now what do I do so

that I'm not doing this?

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You know, because it's easy to, to

beat yourself up for beating yourself

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up, if that makes sense, you know, or

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Fuschia Sirois: Yeah.

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Exactly, so that meta

level of self criticism.

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Kourosh Dini: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So what are your thoughts on that?

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How do you, how, how does one, I don't

know if habit is the right word, but it's

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something along that au automatized level.

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Where does, where does that come in?

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How do you start to introduce that idea

of, I don't need to be automatic in

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this, and what can I do differently?

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Does that make sense?

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Fuschia Sirois: You mean in terms of sort

of your response to, to difficulties.

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Kourosh Dini: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Fuschia Sirois: I, I mean, I,

I mean, it's a great question.

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I think there's probably a

number of different processes.

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I mean, one of the things, and I'm this

sort of comes to mind for me because this

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is an area I'm really actively researching

right now, is I think a lot of it is

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driven by those sort of unspoken and

internalized social norms that we have.

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Right about, you know, what is good

behavior, what is bad behavior?

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What makes us a good citizen

or a good person, and what

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makes us not a good person?

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How will other people view our

behavior or view what we're doing?

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You know, we've always, you know, the

sort of social cognitive perspectives.

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We're not operating in a vacuum

even with our own internal thoughts.

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These are driven and shaped largely by

society and the norms and the cultural

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factors around us that kind of are

there and come into play when it's like.

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You know, help us judge,

should I be doing this?

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Or shouldn't I be doing this?

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Is this a good thing

or is this a bad thing?

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Um, how will this look to others is often

a reference point that we might use to,

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to make that judgment about whether this

is, is something good or bad, for example.

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I mean, you know, not, you know, I

mean there's obviously gray areas, not

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meaning to polarize it here, but I, I

think that those internalized norms,

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especially around procrastination, you

know, um, that those can kind of kick

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in right away and make us self-critical

way, just sort of an immediate response

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as opposed to if we had, imagine.

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You know, utopian world where we had,

um, strong cultural norms around being

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self-compassionate because we know the

value of self-compassion and we know

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that being self-compassionate makes

you more motivated, more productive,

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a happier person, a healthier

person, you know, all these things.

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If we had this, you know, imaginary

society where those were the norms.

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Then that would be the

automatic, I, I would say is

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that's where we would kick in.

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We would screw up on

something 'cause we're human.

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And that's, you know, part of being

self-compassionate, that common humanity

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component is recognizing that we're

imperfect and we all make mistakes.

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But, you know, we, it's how we respond to

those mistakes that makes a difference.

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Right.

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Um, in terms of self-improvement,

self-awareness, uh, you know, uh,

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reaching our goals, et cetera.

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So in that society.

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If you were to make a mistake, I would

argue that your default would be right.

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Don't be so hard on myself.

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You know, everybody else makes

mistakes too, and I've gotta learn

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from this and go forward, but

because we are, you know, living.

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In, at least in Western society

anyways, where those cultural norms

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are very much around productivity.

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Like all these books like Uber

Productivity, get more done

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in a day, add an extra hour to

your day, be more productive.

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All these types of, you know,

sort of drivers, uh, as to what

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makes for a good person, someone

who's contributing to society.

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Those are what get activated.

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Like procrastination has so much

to do with productivity, right?

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We, we use.

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These labels, like laziness to describe

people who are, um, procrastinators,

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but those are just, you know.

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Um, socially constructed,

derogatory terms to shame people

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who are not being productive into

being more productive, right?

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So everything is in the

context of those social norms.

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If we didn't have those social norms

about being super productive, right?

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And, and you know, at least to that

extreme, I, I don't think, you know,

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I'm not saying it's not good to be

productive and reach your goals.

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We know, you know, the large

literature out there about the,

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the link between reaching one's

goals and, and, and wellbeing.

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The extent that it's really pushed

to the limit there, that it becomes

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the be all and end all of our

existence is to be productive.

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Um, I think that drives those social norms

around feeling ashamed and feeling bad and

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being self-critical when we procrastinate.

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And that's where that default

comes in when we make a mistake.

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Kourosh Dini: Interesting.

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So.

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You see it as the, sort of

like the, there, there's the

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social world that we live in.

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The sort of, uh, very, and I agree,

there's this sense of, um, action

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as being, um, valued, uh, more so

than, um, reflection more so than,

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uh, consideration more than, um,

meaning, for example, reflection

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Fuschia Sirois: Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Kourosh Dini: you know, there

was, it makes me think of,

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um, uh, I'm blanking on it.

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I, I did a, I did a bit on it and

I, I forgot who had originally said

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it, but there was like this, this

theme that had kind of developed in,

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uh, in, not only in research, but

in, in, in academic, but just in, in

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corporate and in the world in general.

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The sense that the only things that matter

are things that can be measured and, um.

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I think most of what matters

cannot be me measured.

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You know, I think most of what's

meaningful, it really can't be.

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And, and along those lines, this,

you know, most of what can be this,

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this, I think false way of looking

at it is I think exactly what you're

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talking about, this value on action.

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I can see action,

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Fuschia Sirois: Yeah.

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Yeah, it's true.

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Kourosh Dini: and what you see

somehow becomes more, more.

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Valued external to us, and, and we

lose what we can see internally.

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Um, so that sense of, um,

self-awareness, you know, is, um,

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there's practice to it.

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You know, there's just still

reflecting what you're saying.

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I, I, I think of two,

uh, like two, two people.

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I quote.

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One is Bob Ross, the painter,

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Fuschia Sirois: Yeah.

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Kourosh Dini: the happy accidents.

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What a lovely phrase that is.

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You know, it's.

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It's still like, I, I

still love that phrase.

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And um, and the other one is Miles

Davis who would say there, you

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know, don't worry about mistakes.

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There are none.

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Fuschia Sirois: Mm.

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Kourosh Dini: but his, maybe even

both, they're, they're describing

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a, a, a process of mastery.

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You know, there's there a.

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There are mistakes until you figure out

how to make those mistakes, non mistakes.

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And, and I think what, okay, I, I

think I'm finally figuring out what

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I'm, where I'm going with this.

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Um.

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Which I think you're doing in, in

some way is the question of how do

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we approach self-compassion in a

way that's not like, I dunno, if you

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remember Saturday Night Live with

Stuart Smalley, this character that

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was played by um, Al Franken, who would

look in the mirror and he would say, um.

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He, he would, it was like a

joke about self-compassion.

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It was like kind of, um, he

would look in the mirror and

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say, uh, uh, I'm good enough.

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I'm smart enough, and gosh

darn it, people like me.

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And then he

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would just,

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Fuschia Sirois: it.

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yeah, yeah,

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Kourosh Dini: Uh, uh, and

like it re it was like this.

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I guess the question is, how

do we get ourselves to that

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genuine state of self-compassion?

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How do we get ourselves practicing

along that path and that skill?

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That's what I'm trying to get at.

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Fuschia Sirois: yeah.

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No, I see what you're saying.

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Um, yeah, I mean, a lot of it.

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You know, so if we go to like, you

know, um, Kristen Neff's website

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self-compassion dot org, right?

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Like, you know, one of the first things

that she always says is you have to

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become aware of your internal script.

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So what's your internal script when

you screw up something, when you

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make a mistake or when you're unhappy

with something in your behavior or

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something doesn't go your way, right?

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Um, what is that script?

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And most people aren't aware

of that internal script.

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Kourosh Dini: Yeah.

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Fuschia Sirois: Um, you know, it,

it's, it's just there operating, right?

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Like a default, just automatic drive.

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And so, you know, the first thing is

to be aware of what, how you respond to

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difficulties and you, 'cause you can't

change anything until you can respond.

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But I think, you know, like what you're

saying about the things that we don't

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value, things that aren't as as seen.

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Um, and maybe that's one of

the reasons why we don't.

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Think about being self-compassionate.

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: 00:16:28

Um, but yeah, I, I mean, short of changing

those value systems, but I think also some

304

: 00:16:34

of these are, are, are linked to other

work ethics, you know, the protestant

305

: 00:16:37

work ethic and things like that.

306

: 00:16:39

Like, it's just really like

just go, go, go right and,

307

: 00:16:43

and, and be hard on yourself.

308

: 00:16:45

Um.

309

: 00:16:46

You look to, um, and I can't remember

if we, we had this conversation

310

: 00:16:49

after the conference, but you know,

there was a study that looked at, um,

311

: 00:16:53

self-compassion levels across, uh,

three different parts of the world.

312

: 00:16:58

So they looked at self and they

compared mean values to see.

313

: 00:17:01

So as a nation, which was more

self-compassionate, just 'cause it's

314

: 00:17:05

gotta get a glimpse at maybe how different

cultural values were, were, might be

315

: 00:17:08

operating and shaping, uh, people's, uh.

316

: 00:17:13

You know, default levels

of self-compassion.

317

: 00:17:15

So they looked at them in the us um, in

Thailand, and I believe it was Malaysia.

318

: 00:17:25

Now, which, which country do you think

would have the highest and which would

319

: 00:17:28

have the lowest of self-compassion?

320

: 00:17:31

Just taking a guess there.

321

: 00:17:33

Kourosh Dini: I'm voting the

lowest self-compassion with the

322

: 00:17:35

us, but the highest, I can't guess.

323

: 00:17:38

I, I, I, I would, uh, I don't know.

324

: 00:17:40

But then again, I, I, these are

generalities obviously, and I'm,

325

: 00:17:44

I'm sure that there's someone in the

US who's highly self-compassionate

326

: 00:17:47

and

327

: 00:17:47

Fuschia Sirois: of course.

328

: 00:17:48

Kourosh Dini: ones who are not.

329

: 00:17:49

Fuschia Sirois: Yeah.

330

: 00:17:49

These are, you know, these

are nationwide main scores.

331

: 00:17:51

I mean, there's always, you

know, deviations within that.

332

: 00:17:54

But as a looking at that level, it does

tell you a little bit about the culture.

333

: 00:17:58

So, um, no, the US wasn't the lowest.

334

: 00:18:01

Kourosh Dini: It wasn't.

335

: 00:18:02

Okay.

336

: 00:18:02

All right.

337

: 00:18:03

I even got the

338

: 00:18:03

Fuschia Sirois: know a lot of people.

339

: 00:18:04

Kourosh Dini: wrong.

340

: 00:18:05

Fuschia Sirois: Yeah, a

lot of people say that.

341

: 00:18:06

So actually, so the highest

scores were Thailand.

342

: 00:18:10

Kourosh Dini: Okay.

343

: 00:18:11

Fuschia Sirois: Because

that is the seed of Buddhism

344

: 00:18:12

Kourosh Dini: Ah,

345

: 00:18:13

Fuschia Sirois: and self-compassion as a

concept is rooted in Buddhist philosophy.

346

: 00:18:17

Kourosh Dini: Sure.

347

: 00:18:19

Fuschia Sirois: Right about

kindness, you know, mindfulness

348

: 00:18:22

and common humanity, right?

349

: 00:18:25

And those are three strong principles.

350

: 00:18:26

So you have a culture that's pretty much

indoctrinated into that way of thinking.

351

: 00:18:31

You know, there are other religions

in, in Thailand, I've been there,

352

: 00:18:34

and there's, there's certainly a, you

know, a few other prominent ones too.

353

: 00:18:37

But the, the, the Buddhist

principles are, are quite powerful.

354

: 00:18:41

You can't really escape them, um, easily.

355

: 00:18:44

Um, uh, US was in the middle.

356

: 00:18:47

Kourosh Dini: Okay, go

357

: 00:18:49

us.

358

: 00:18:50

Fuschia Sirois: and, and

Malaysia was the lowest.

359

: 00:18:53

Kourosh Dini: Okay.

360

: 00:18:54

Fuschia Sirois: Because in Malaysia

there is an extremely strong work

361

: 00:18:57

ethic, and I'm not sure about the

origins of this, but there people

362

: 00:19:02

push themselves and drive themselves

and they're trying to be productive

363

: 00:19:05

and trying to do more all the time.

364

: 00:19:07

Um, and that's something we wouldn't

necessarily think about, you know,

365

: 00:19:10

in, in Western culture so much.

366

: 00:19:11

But I think part of it is, some of it

is adopting some of the Western values,

367

: 00:19:15

but perhaps maybe just a, a segment of

them that may not be that healthy for.

368

: 00:19:20

A culture there, but yeah, it's, it's

very, it's very dog eat dog in Malaysia.

369

: 00:19:25

Um, and so that's where you see that.

370

: 00:19:27

So again, that shows you,

there's a culture where there's

371

: 00:19:30

a lot of competition, right?

372

: 00:19:33

And a lot of trying to get ahead.

373

: 00:19:35

Um, which is sort of, we pair that

with being more productive and uber

374

: 00:19:39

productive and you see low self.

375

: 00:19:41

Compassion levels.

376

: 00:19:42

Um, which is going back to what I

was saying earlier, that if you had

377

: 00:19:45

a culture where, you know, it wasn't

so much like that, people's response

378

: 00:19:49

might be more self-compassionate

when they, when they make a mistake,

379

: 00:19:52

that would be their default.

380

: 00:19:54

Kourosh Dini: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

381

: 00:19:56

All right.

382

: 00:19:56

So, all right.

383

: 00:19:58

We're going off the beaten path.

384

: 00:20:00

I dunno if it's beaten path,

but it's going on a tangent.

385

: 00:20:02

I'm

386

: 00:20:02

Fuschia Sirois: Okay.

387

: 00:20:03

Kourosh Dini: uh.

388

: 00:20:06

Alright.

389

: 00:20:06

If there were some totem, some

character that we were able to, uh,

390

: 00:20:10

to sell the concept of, Hey, don't,

like, you don't need to be working

391

: 00:20:15

so hard, this is hurt, hurtful.

392

: 00:20:17

Like, what would, I'm trying

to think of how we would sell

393

: 00:20:20

to that person an alternative.

394

: 00:20:22

Like what would we say to them that yes,

this would help us on a, on an individual

395

: 00:20:29

basis to be more self-compassionate.

396

: 00:20:35

But what would it, what would the

advantage be to the entity itself, the

397

: 00:20:40

country itself, let's say Mil Malaysia,

and say, this is why it would help you

398

: 00:20:45

for all of us to be in a better spirit

and more self-compassionate, you know?

399

: 00:20:50

Yeah.

400

: 00:20:51

Fuschia Sirois: So, yeah,

no, it's interesting.

401

: 00:20:55

Perspective.

402

: 00:20:56

I think though that because cultural

norms are so deeply embedded, you

403

: 00:21:00

actually have to work with the values

attached to those cultural norms.

404

: 00:21:05

So, and this is, I've seen a lot, even

in a lot of the early research literature

405

: 00:21:09

around self-compassion, which, you know,

there's huge momentum in this area now.

406

: 00:21:13

People are kind of

coming on board with it.

407

: 00:21:15

Before people kind of thought it was very

woo woo and, you know, not, not sort of

408

: 00:21:18

a real thing or something of any value,

but, but there's been enough studies now.

409

: 00:21:23

With very rigorous, um, you know,

conducting very rigorous, rigorous

410

: 00:21:27

scientific designs, um, showing

quite clearly that when you're

411

: 00:21:32

self-compassionate and you screw up as

you inevitably will, most people do.

412

: 00:21:36

People who are self-compassionate,

even when they're given a prompt to

413

: 00:21:39

be not that they have, that they have,

you know, sort of circulating high

414

: 00:21:43

levels of self-compassion, if you like.

415

: 00:21:45

It's just you've, you've just

been prompted momentarily

416

: 00:21:47

to be self-compassionate.

417

: 00:21:49

They actually show greater persistence

in the face of difficulties.

418

: 00:21:52

They have higher levels of motivation

and they're more likely to succeed.

419

: 00:21:55

So you see, those are the values that are

embedded in with this go, go, go thing.

420

: 00:22:01

So I almost feel like it's sort of a

bit of a trick then to turn that around.

421

: 00:22:04

Say, oh, you wanna get more productive,

you know, and be happier along the way.

422

: 00:22:09

While you're reaching your goals,

instead of feeling like burnt out

423

: 00:22:11

and exhausted and like, what more

do I need to do, kind of thing.

424

: 00:22:15

So if that's your thing and you want

to be productive or you're just, you

425

: 00:22:17

can't separate yourself from those

values, then you sell self-compassion

426

: 00:22:22

on all its benefits for enhancing

productivity, reaching goals, persistence,

427

: 00:22:30

self-improvement in your actions that

maybe make a difference for some of your,

428

: 00:22:35

you know, more career or, or sort of, um.

429

: 00:22:38

Goal oriented, um, focus.

430

: 00:22:41

And, and that's how you get people's

attention because trying to tell it was

431

: 00:22:45

gonna improve your wellbeing, improve

your health, you know, it, those are

432

: 00:22:49

side effects that you can say, and

you'll get all these things as well, but.

433

: 00:22:53

You know, there, like I said, the

first study that was done on this

434

: 00:22:56

experimental, it was back in 2012,

and I'm just really surprised it

435

: 00:22:58

hasn't been picked up on more.

436

: 00:23:00

Um, it was a nice series of experimental

studies getting between prompting people

437

: 00:23:05

and actually looking at, you know,

uh, natural levels of self-compassion

438

: 00:23:09

and giving them, you know, failure,

feedback on tasks and experimental

439

: 00:23:13

design, um, and self-compassion.

440

: 00:23:16

Got people just keep going and be,

be, you know, reach their goals.

441

: 00:23:21

Be happier about it too.

442

: 00:23:23

Um, so I think, I think that's probably,

for me, would be the easiest way to do it.

443

: 00:23:27

Trying to sell people with like

a psychoeducation, oh, here's

444

: 00:23:31

what self-compassionate is.

445

: 00:23:32

You know, here's, you know,

how you can do it more.

446

: 00:23:35

All that.

447

: 00:23:36

Um, we, we've actually done some

studies trying to see if, you

448

: 00:23:39

know, just giving people more

information about how beneficial

449

: 00:23:42

self-compassion is broadly, right?

450

: 00:23:44

Not targeting specific values,

if that would actually make them

451

: 00:23:48

more, you know, self-compassionate.

452

: 00:23:51

Doesn't, and I think that doesn't,

because you're either, it's in conflict,

453

: 00:23:57

that information is in conflict with

the prevailing values that are, that are

454

: 00:24:01

there and the beliefs that are there.

455

: 00:24:02

And so you have to kind of harness

and, you know, sort of leverage

456

: 00:24:06

those beliefs to show Well,

that's what's important to you.

457

: 00:24:09

Well, self-compassion

can help you with that.

458

: 00:24:12

Um, and, you know, it

sounds, it sounds a bit.

459

: 00:24:16

It's not necessarily twisted, but it's

not, you know, it'd be great if we

460

: 00:24:18

could just say, here's all the benefits,

but until people start experiencing

461

: 00:24:23

it, and once they do, then they kind

of go, yeah, actually this works.

462

: 00:24:28

And it's a better way for me to, to do

the things I want to do in life and,

463

: 00:24:32

and reach the goals I want, and still

feel like I'm being a productive member

464

: 00:24:35

of society or whatever, you know?

465

: 00:24:37

Um, yeah.

466

: 00:24:39

Kourosh Dini: it doesn't

sound twisted at all.

467

: 00:24:40

In fact, I'm thinking about it.

468

: 00:24:41

It makes me think of, um.

469

: 00:24:44

For a while there I was studying

the nature of story itself.

470

: 00:24:46

Right.

471

: 00:24:46

Just what story is, you know, and, uh,

I thought I'd write something and maybe

472

: 00:24:51

one day I will, but, and I've got like 12

books sitting there on how to write story.

473

: 00:24:54

I haven't written one, but, uh,

like, but the, I, but, but, but the

474

: 00:24:58

story, but the nature of it is that,

I don't remember which one said it.

475

: 00:25:03

There's this conversion or this,

uh, this, this relationship

476

: 00:25:07

between want and need and, um.

477

: 00:25:11

Let's say the the society itself, you

know, wants more productivity, you

478

: 00:25:16

start with a character that has a want.

479

: 00:25:19

Somewhere along the way

it'll discover, hopefully.

480

: 00:25:24

A need, it'll just, oh, I don't, I,

I want that, but really I need this.

481

: 00:25:28

And then in that process, if you, if

you, if you make the sacrifice of, of the

482

: 00:25:33

want and, and start pursuing the need,

you have a, um, so-called happy ending.

483

: 00:25:38

You have something that's like

developing in a, in a positive direction.

484

: 00:25:41

If you don't, if the main character

gets their want, you have tragedy.

485

: 00:25:47

And so what you're saying, it

doesn't sound twisted at all.

486

: 00:25:49

You're presenting, look, I know you want

this, I know you want the productivity,

487

: 00:25:53

I know you want that part, but let me

tell you where you, you need resiliency.

488

: 00:25:57

You and, and, and, and or

the path towards like this.

489

: 00:26:02

I would say more, um, symbiotic

relationship with the people

490

: 00:26:06

rather than a parasitic one.

491

: 00:26:08

You know, if you can find that

you're gonna have a healthier life,

492

: 00:26:11

you're gonna have a healthier.

493

: 00:26:13

Development as a nation, as

a company, as a whatever.

494

: 00:26:16

You're, you're, you're, you know,

something to have the, the, the components

495

: 00:26:20

that work with you rather than, um,

be, um, uh, crushed by it, you know?

496

: 00:26:25

Uh, anyway, I, I realize we're quite

on a tangent, but in, in, not, I'm not

497

: 00:26:30

so sure we are in, in another sense

is that, because what I'm hearing you

498

: 00:26:34

say is how much of procrastination is

related to the forces of society, and so.

499

: 00:26:41

It's not a tangent.

500

: 00:26:41

It needs to be thought

through in some degree.

501

: 00:26:44

Like how do we have our, how do we

relate to these corporate, societal,

502

: 00:26:51

governmental, country, whatever,

larger entity than ourselves?

503

: 00:26:55

How do we relate to them in a way

that that, um, doesn't have us.

504

: 00:27:00

Um, victims that has us being

agents on this and, and saying,

505

: 00:27:05

you know, we're a part of this.

506

: 00:27:06

Let's see what we can do to,

to, to make this work for us.

507

: 00:27:09

Anyway, I'm not sure I had a

question in there, but just,

508

: 00:27:11

Fuschia Sirois: No, no, no.

509

: 00:27:12

I think I, I mean, it

makes, it makes sense.

510

: 00:27:14

Um, I think, like I said, I, I brought

up the social norms 'cause we've just

511

: 00:27:18

been doing some, some research, um,

over the, the past couple of weeks.

512

: 00:27:23

Um.

513

: 00:27:25

I don't know if you met, uh,

Cormack at the, uh, the conference.

514

: 00:27:29

He had had a, he had a

talk, a really nice talk.

515

: 00:27:32

He was looking at

procrastination and older adult.

516

: 00:27:34

So anyways, so he's here, he's,

uh, here visiting me from Ireland

517

: 00:27:38

as a, a visiting PhD student.

518

: 00:27:40

So we've been working on

a couple of pro projects.

519

: 00:27:42

Um, some of them relating to the

social norms and procrastination.

520

: 00:27:46

And so he's just been

crunching the numbers.

521

: 00:27:48

We've been looking at some

of the findings and, uh.

522

: 00:27:51

Um, really interesting stuff.

523

: 00:27:53

We've, you know, we asked people

to imagine themselves as someone

524

: 00:27:57

who procrastinates a lot, and then,

you know, and then also imagine

525

: 00:28:01

themselves as someone who doesn't

procrastinate much and then, uh,

526

: 00:28:05

score themselves on these adjectives

that have to do with productivity.

527

: 00:28:08

Um, so one of my students, I think at the

conference, uh, Hannah Markman gave a, a a

528

: 00:28:13

bit of a talk about the preliminary study.

529

: 00:28:15

So now we've taken it further and we

wanted to look and see, you know, um, how

530

: 00:28:20

the social norms operate with different

types of procrastination, like general

531

: 00:28:23

procrastination, health procrastination,

financial procrastination.

532

: 00:28:28

And to see if these social

norms are operating differently

533

: 00:28:31

across these different domains.

534

: 00:28:32

And we also looked at younger

versus older adults as well too,

535

: 00:28:36

to see if they might have different

social norms being generationally.

536

: 00:28:39

So younger being 18 to 30 year

olds and older being 60 plus.

537

: 00:28:43

Right?

538

: 00:28:44

Because again, there might

be some cohort effects due to

539

: 00:28:47

generational values kicking in.

540

: 00:28:49

Um, and that would be suggesting

if there is a, been a shift in

541

: 00:28:53

those, those cultural values.

542

: 00:28:54

Um, and yeah, so.

543

: 00:28:55

I got them to rate themselves.

544

: 00:28:57

Imagine themselves as someone who often

or rarely procrastinate, rates themselves

545

: 00:29:01

on these adjectives about productivity.

546

: 00:29:05

Um, we also, you know, ask

them to rate themselves in

547

: 00:29:08

terms of how self-compassionate

or self-critical they were.

548

: 00:29:12

Um.

549

: 00:29:13

Et cetera.

550

: 00:29:14

And interestingly, when there was no

cohort effects, there was no difference

551

: 00:29:18

in the the operation of social norms

between the older and younger adults.

552

: 00:29:22

And I should back that up and say

we did find that people who imagined

553

: 00:29:26

themselves as a procrastinator.

554

: 00:29:28

Rated themselves much more

negatively on those social norms.

555

: 00:29:31

They saw themselves as lazy,

unproductive, disorganized, okay.

556

: 00:29:35

Than those who were, you know,

someone who rarely procrastinate.

557

: 00:29:38

So that was just a sort of a, a good

illustration that we do have these

558

: 00:29:42

norms and operation, and you can

activate them just by getting someone

559

: 00:29:45

to think about being a procrastinator.

560

: 00:29:47

They immediately think of themselves

in these more negative terms.

561

: 00:29:51

Um, but those.

562

: 00:29:53

You know, the, the degree of negativity

didn't differ depending on the age

563

: 00:29:57

cohort, which suggests that these norms

are pretty stable, perhaps over time,

564

: 00:30:01

across different generational groups.

565

: 00:30:03

Um, we did see differences in the domain.

566

: 00:30:07

People rated themselves much more in,

in negative terms in terms of those

567

: 00:30:12

social norms when they were thinking

about financial procrastination.

568

: 00:30:18

Kourosh Dini: Hmm.

569

: 00:30:18

Fuschia Sirois: So that was

the most negatively rated one.

570

: 00:30:21

So, because there's real loss, right?

571

: 00:30:23

Um, I, I was hoping there'd be

something for health, because that's

572

: 00:30:26

one of my main areas of research,

but not a huge difference with the

573

: 00:30:30

health, because health is like a, you

know, it's an obscure thing, right?

574

: 00:30:33

Like, you know, you could be

healthy now and it could be a

575

: 00:30:36

long time before you get ill.

576

: 00:30:38

And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's

kind of too amorphous finances though.

577

: 00:30:42

If you procrastinate

and it costs you money.

578

: 00:30:45

You feel that right away.

579

: 00:30:46

Right.

580

: 00:30:47

And it's very noticeable.

581

: 00:30:48

So I, I think that's why people

rate it that more negatively.

582

: 00:30:51

Um, but anyways, that was the second

study and we just did a third, um,

583

: 00:30:57

sorry, that was the second study there.

584

: 00:30:59

Um, we're gonna be running a third one.

585

: 00:31:00

But one of the other things we did in

the second study was to, uh, look at how

586

: 00:31:06

these ratings might be shaped depending

on people's level of self-compassion.

587

: 00:31:14

And we did find that people were

self-compassionate, tended to give

588

: 00:31:17

lower negative ratings, which is

what we've been saying all along.

589

: 00:31:21

So they're not, they're able to

counteract a lot of those norms and

590

: 00:31:25

in some instances, they actually

were more compassionate to people in

591

: 00:31:30

the procrastination than, you know.

592

: 00:31:32

Scenario than they were when they were

thinking themselves as not being a

593

: 00:31:35

procrastinator, which I think just goes

back to the idea of procrastination

594

: 00:31:39

being, uh, sorry, self-compassion

being activated, um, you know, when

595

: 00:31:43

you're struggling with something.

596

: 00:31:45

Um, so yeah, it was, it, it, to me, it

really just like those norms are there

597

: 00:31:49

and they're there around productivity and

they're negative and they're operating

598

: 00:31:53

even just asking you someone to think

about being in the shoes of someone.

599

: 00:31:58

Who procrastinates regularly, immediately.

600

: 00:32:00

They've judged themselves harshly.

601

: 00:32:02

Kourosh Dini: Now one of the things that

I think you, you help bridge then is not

602

: 00:32:06

just the societal aspect of it, is the,

is when you invoke self-compassion in

603

: 00:32:11

these difficult situations, you're, you're

talking about how do I manage my internal.

604

: 00:32:16

It's how do I manage

my emotional, how do I

605

: 00:32:19

Fuschia Sirois: Exactly.

606

: 00:32:20

Kourosh Dini: One of the things I

know you've, you've talked about or

607

: 00:32:22

I know you're developing, is there's

this tool that you've called TEMPO.

608

: 00:32:25

If I've got the, the

609

: 00:32:26

Fuschia Sirois: That's right.

610

: 00:32:27

Yeah.

611

: 00:32:28

Kourosh Dini: I'm

curious about it because.

612

: 00:32:31

One, something that's near and dear

to me is, is the sense of how do we

613

: 00:32:35

start acting as individuals, developing

agency, developing ourselves, developing

614

: 00:32:40

it so that we can do something about

this rather than, um, get caught in, in

615

: 00:32:45

a, in a, um, pointing it at the world

and saying, I, I can't do anything.

616

: 00:32:50

You know, you know, kind of

falling into a victim state.

617

: 00:32:53

How do we, how do we, it sounds like this

sounds like a tool that helps you manage

618

: 00:32:57

that, and I'd love, love to hear about it.

619

: 00:33:00

Fuschia Sirois: Yeah, no.

620

: 00:33:00

Yeah.

621

: 00:33:00

So TEMPO, TEMPO is, um, developed.

622

: 00:33:05

Um, so TEMPO, the, it's an acronym

for Taming Emotions to Manage

623

: 00:33:11

Procrastination Open-Heartedly.

624

: 00:33:13

And it's all about sort of, um, taking a

more compassionate approach and view of

625

: 00:33:18

procrastination rather than a harsh one.

626

: 00:33:19

So it is sort of edging on

those, those social norms.

627

: 00:33:23

Um.

628

: 00:33:24

But yeah, it's, it's a toolkit,

um, to first make people aware

629

: 00:33:29

of what procrastination is.

630

: 00:33:31

A lot of people don't have

a clear idea about that.

631

: 00:33:33

They often mistake it

for just common delay.

632

: 00:33:35

Um, but also the, the harms

associated with it is not just that

633

: 00:33:40

you don't get your things done.

634

: 00:33:41

There's real health costs,

there's wellbeing costs,

635

: 00:33:43

social reputational costs, um,

financial costs potentially too.

636

: 00:33:49

Um.

637

: 00:33:51

And then, you know, equipping

them with an alternative set of

638

: 00:33:56

strategies to address procrastination.

639

: 00:33:59

I say they're alternative because

they, they go against a lot of the pop

640

: 00:34:02

psychology that's been around for a while.

641

: 00:34:04

I mean, I've seen shifts in this since,

you know, uh, Tim Pychyl and I sort

642

: 00:34:08

of first sort of proposed, you know,

over a decade ago that, you know.

643

: 00:34:13

Emotions.

644

: 00:34:14

A poor mood management is

ground zero for procrastination.

645

: 00:34:18

We're we're avoiding the negative

emotions associated with the task when

646

: 00:34:21

we procrastinate, not the task itself.

647

: 00:34:24

And so we use it as a quick and dirty

and fast mood regulation strategy that

648

: 00:34:28

unfortunately sets up a downward spiral.

649

: 00:34:31

Even worse, negative emotions

and self-criticism and

650

: 00:34:34

further procrastination.

651

: 00:34:35

Um, so it's not poor time management.

652

: 00:34:38

It's not poor self-control,

all those things.

653

: 00:34:41

Are tools that can help, but they're

layered from our perspective.

654

: 00:34:44

It's layered on top if you don't

address the emotional, you know, um,

655

: 00:34:48

difficulties and you know, there's inner

scripts that can contribute to those

656

: 00:34:52

emotional, uh, difficulties as well.

657

: 00:34:55

Uh, then you, you're just going

to continue to procrastinate.

658

: 00:34:58

So, so the TEMPO was designed to

give people this alternative set of

659

: 00:35:03

tools, and it is based a lot on the

self-help book that I um, wrote that

660

: 00:35:08

was published by a PA Life Tools.

661

: 00:35:11

Uh, back in 2022.

662

: 00:35:15

Um, and, you know, that's sort of

a, a more involved read, right?

663

: 00:35:20

Um, and, you know, lot of people were

just like, but I want something now kind

664

: 00:35:23

of thing, so I want something faster.

665

: 00:35:25

And the TEMPO was also to make it

free freely available to, to people.

666

: 00:35:29

Um, and so yeah, after a bit of

background, then people were given

667

: 00:35:33

a set of, of science backed, you

know, evidence-based strategies

668

: 00:35:37

that will help them think about.

669

: 00:35:39

Where these negative emotions

might be coming from so they can

670

: 00:35:42

tackle them more effectively.

671

: 00:35:44

Because, you know, it's one thing

to say, oh, it's negative emotions.

672

: 00:35:48

Well, negative emotions can come from

a lot of different places, especially

673

: 00:35:51

in the context of procrastination.

674

: 00:35:52

So we've tried to pull out at least the

seven most common, um, you know, sources.

675

: 00:35:58

So we call that section of

the TEMPO, seek the source.

676

: 00:36:01

Um, and that way it, it's designed

in a way that people can just

677

: 00:36:05

utilize whatever they need.

678

: 00:36:07

So whichever resonates.

679

: 00:36:09

They can pull out and go,

right, it's my perfectionism.

680

: 00:36:12

Right?

681

: 00:36:13

Um, or it's my lack of common humanity.

682

: 00:36:16

'cause I feel alone.

683

: 00:36:16

I feel like I'm the only one

that's screwing up, you know?

684

: 00:36:19

Um, and.

685

: 00:36:20

Getting 'em to reflect a

little bit on that source.

686

: 00:36:23

And we also give, uh,

some practical exercises.

687

: 00:36:26

Some of them are, you know, uh, text

boxes that they can embed in there.

688

: 00:36:31

Um, others, there's at least one where

we point them to, um, a website where

689

: 00:36:36

they can go and read about other people's

experiences with procrastination.

690

: 00:36:39

So they don't feel so alone, they don't

feel that sense of isolation, which is

691

: 00:36:43

a negative pole of, of self-compassion.

692

: 00:36:46

Um, and then we sort of end up with.

693

: 00:36:49

Um, a little bit about,

you know, the environment.

694

: 00:36:52

You know, you, you've gotta create, set

up an environment that's gonna support

695

: 00:36:56

these strategies that you're taking.

696

: 00:36:57

Otherwise, you're working against

yourself, so you don't do all

697

: 00:36:59

these things and leave all the

distractions around, right?

698

: 00:37:02

And all these other things.

699

: 00:37:03

Those distractions make it.

700

: 00:37:05

Easier to procrastinate.

701

: 00:37:07

Um, and, and you know, social media and

other factors too, and temptations, you

702

: 00:37:11

know, tempting alternative activities,

they make it easier to procrastinate.

703

: 00:37:14

But from our perspective, they

don't cause the procrastination.

704

: 00:37:17

Right.

705

: 00:37:18

Because that kind of view, like,

and I think this goes back to what

706

: 00:37:21

you're saying, but the agency and not

being a victim, like I see, I really.

707

: 00:37:24

I really dislike it when people

say, oh yeah, the social media

708

: 00:37:28

and the, the temptations.

709

: 00:37:30

That's what's causing

people to procrastinate.

710

: 00:37:32

Well then, you know what?

711

: 00:37:32

We would all be procrastinating, right?

712

: 00:37:34

Like, like that's just setting

us up all to be victims.

713

: 00:37:37

We're a victim of the technology

and the technological advances

714

: 00:37:40

and that's not this case, right?

715

: 00:37:42

Um, the cause.

716

: 00:37:44

Is the emotions and not having the proper

tools to either recognize what those

717

: 00:37:49

emotions are and to deal with them.

718

: 00:37:52

And once, and, and that's something that's

changeable that we can hand the agencies.

719

: 00:37:56

You, you mentioned back to

people by saying, right.

720

: 00:37:59

Explore, you know, what the causes

are for you and might be different

721

: 00:38:03

in different contexts and different

types of tasks that you procrastinate.

722

: 00:38:07

Um, and, and here's some tools to

help you kind of get a handle on it.

723

: 00:38:10

So it's putting it back in people's

hands and saying, oh, it's just

724

: 00:38:13

the technology and all that.

725

: 00:38:14

No, that's that.

726

: 00:38:15

By managing that stuff, you know,

you're helping, you're setting a

727

: 00:38:20

nice backdrop if you like, or setting

the landscape for more successful

728

: 00:38:25

efforts to reduce procrastination.

729

: 00:38:27

Kourosh Dini: Yeah, absolutely.

730

: 00:38:28

Absolutely.

731

: 00:38:29

I, I'm, I'm, uh, I, I so appreciate

that, uh, the, um, emotions are,

732

: 00:38:36

are so much, I mean, that's, that

is the stuff of consciousness.

733

: 00:38:38

That is the stuff of, you

know, what we exist in.

734

: 00:38:42

And, um, and the, the trouble

with the word is that it's so, um.

735

: 00:38:50

It's so everything that it becomes

so nothing to some, you know,

736

: 00:38:53

because you say, you know, you say

the word emotion and the eyes glaze

737

: 00:38:57

over and, and, but it's vital.

738

: 00:39:00

It is the, you know, if you're

not paying attention to them and,

739

: 00:39:04

and you know, it becomes, um.

740

: 00:39:09

Too cookie cutter.

741

: 00:39:10

You know, I'm sad, I'm too happy,

I'm too sad, I'm too worried.

742

: 00:39:12

I'm too, it, it's the, there might

be some primary colors to it,

743

: 00:39:17

but there's a lot more to them.

744

: 00:39:18

Fuschia Sirois: Mm-hmm.

745

: 00:39:19

Yeah.

746

: 00:39:19

Kourosh Dini: You know, it's, and, and,

uh, and, and they emanate from sources

747

: 00:39:23

of meaning within us, you know, and,

you know, when we, that perfectionism,

748

: 00:39:27

for example, or the sense of, you know,

if I, for example, if I start a thing.

749

: 00:39:35

Once I started, I have now manifested it.

750

: 00:39:37

I have now, you know, some part of me

is now on display and if I never do

751

: 00:39:43

that, then I can retain the fantasy.

752

: 00:39:45

That could have been

753

: 00:39:46

Fuschia Sirois: Exactly.

754

: 00:39:47

Exactly.

755

: 00:39:47

Yeah.

756

: 00:39:47

That's, that's one of the core beliefs,

I think is, you know, links procrast,

757

: 00:39:52

uh, perfectionism to procrastination.

758

: 00:39:54

It's just, yeah, it, and, and,

and it can remain perfect in

759

: 00:39:57

my mind because the minute I.

760

: 00:39:59

It's not just the self-judgment, but I

think also alongside of that is the minute

761

: 00:40:04

I take a step to manifest that, um, if

it hasn't come out exactly like what's

762

: 00:40:09

in my head, that it's imperfect and I've

screwed up and I don't wanna screw up.

763

: 00:40:13

So it's better for me to keep

the perfect image in my head.

764

: 00:40:15

Kourosh Dini: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

765

: 00:40:17

And, and then that I think connects

to, um, I just drew a connection to, to

766

: 00:40:21

the, what you were talking about, the

over producing, uh, culture is that.

767

: 00:40:28

It, it, it, the overproducing

culture is distanced from creativity.

768

: 00:40:31

You know, creativity is an

act of discovering something.

769

: 00:40:35

In the act of making it, you know,

you're, you're like, I'm figuring out

770

: 00:40:39

what I'm making while I'm making it.

771

: 00:40:41

As opposed to the productive says,

make the thing, make the thing

772

: 00:40:45

and it better look like this.

773

: 00:40:46

And, and, and you don't.

774

: 00:40:48

But the creative is that

you don't know the steps.

775

: 00:40:50

You don't know how long it'll take.

776

: 00:40:51

You don't know what's going and, and, and.

777

: 00:40:54

So when we're stuck in that sense

of I should know what it looks

778

: 00:40:57

like, I should be able to create

the perfect thing with the shoulds,

779

: 00:41:00

you know, shoulding ourselves.

780

: 00:41:02

Um, then that's part of

that block, I imagine.

781

: 00:41:05

You know, it's that sense of, um, as

opposed to I can throw the thing down.

782

: 00:41:11

I can throw the, the, the.

783

: 00:41:14

The clay to onto the, onto the

wheel and, and then figure out

784

: 00:41:17

what to do in the next step.

785

: 00:41:19

And then when, and then I

can figure out what to do in

786

: 00:41:21

the next step and keep going.

787

: 00:41:22

And then eventually I might have a

thing and it might be all right and

788

: 00:41:25

I'll make mistakes and all, all the

things you were just describing, you

789

: 00:41:28

know, and, uh, with the, you know, being

able to be resilient with mistakes, you

790

: 00:41:32

know, and being able to say, and not

only resilient, but recognizing that.

791

: 00:41:37

That deviation from the original vision

is not necessarily a mistake so much as

792

: 00:41:43

it is, um, deviation from original vision.

793

: 00:41:46

Let's fig, let's update.

794

: 00:41:47

Let's figure it out.

795

: 00:41:47

Let's, you know, uh, uh,

796

: 00:41:50

Fuschia Sirois: It's more

the, about the process.

797

: 00:41:52

I mean, it's, that's, that's, you know,

the other thing too, and you know,

798

: 00:41:55

there has been a, a bit of research on

this with respect to procrastination.

799

: 00:41:58

It's the whole thing of the, the focus on

the journey rather than the destination.

800

: 00:42:03

We get so overly focused and

obsessed with the destination,

801

: 00:42:06

what the end is gonna look like.

802

: 00:42:08

And you, you miss the fact that

the journey along the way is what

803

: 00:42:11

makes it enjoyable to get there.

804

: 00:42:13

That's what life is about.

805

: 00:42:14

It's just, if we were just to

jump to the outcomes all the time.

806

: 00:42:18

Like, how boring would that be?

807

: 00:42:19

That wouldn't be rewarding or satisfying.

808

: 00:42:21

We would, we wouldn't have

grown or developed as people.

809

: 00:42:24

We wouldn't have had these made these

sort of, you know, um, serendipitous

810

: 00:42:28

sort of mistakes that lead you into

different directions and that, and I

811

: 00:42:32

think, yeah, this, the o part of it's.

812

: 00:42:34

I dunno, maybe it's tied back to

those cultural values, but over you,

813

: 00:42:38

you've gotta plan out all the steps.

814

: 00:42:39

And that's very much a corporate kind

of mindset in many ways too, isn't it?

815

: 00:42:43

Like here's the, the result, we

have to plan the steps to get there

816

: 00:42:46

and this is how it's gonna happen.

817

: 00:42:47

And you can't approach all goals that way.

818

: 00:42:50

Sometimes they, they have to, um.

819

: 00:42:53

Fall out that way organically.

820

: 00:42:54

And I, you know what you're

describing that I know.

821

: 00:42:57

I'm just thinking.

822

: 00:42:57

We've been doing, my husband and I

have been doing some landscaping in

823

: 00:42:59

our back garden, um, and he used to

work in architecture, so he's very

824

: 00:43:04

much about planning and precision.

825

: 00:43:06

Like he's ultra precise.

826

: 00:43:08

You know, when, when he, when

he cuts wood and joinery, it's

827

: 00:43:11

almost too tight of a fit.

828

: 00:43:12

He doesn't allow for the little

imperfections, so he has to redo it.

829

: 00:43:15

Right.

830

: 00:43:15

So, um, but.

831

: 00:43:17

When we started playing The

Guardian, all these ideas, and

832

: 00:43:19

we'll do this, it'll be that, and

I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

833

: 00:43:22

No, I, I think we just need to

do this and see how it looks.

834

: 00:43:25

And so I really pushed back on all

this architectural mindset about

835

: 00:43:29

having it all perfectly planned out.

836

: 00:43:31

And I was like, no, no, no, we'll

just do this bit, see where it goes.

837

: 00:43:35

And then, so we did with our whole

approach was that we did one bit

838

: 00:43:37

and was like, oh, well this would

look good now if we did over here.

839

: 00:43:40

Oh, let's change over here.

840

: 00:43:41

And now we look.

841

: 00:43:42

And he, he actually.

842

: 00:43:43

Sat back last week and he said,

he said, I can't believe this

843

: 00:43:46

all came together like this.

844

: 00:43:47

Like we didn't plan it all out at once.

845

: 00:43:49

We just did little bits at a time

and let it just sort of creatively

846

: 00:43:53

developed and just sort of blossom.

847

: 00:43:54

And it looks, it looks like

it was perfectly planned

848

: 00:43:57

without the planning, you know?

849

: 00:43:58

Kourosh Dini: yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

850

: 00:44:00

yeah.

851

: 00:44:01

Fuschia Sirois: Anyway, sorry.

852

: 00:44:02

It's my little anecdotal

853

: 00:44:03

approach to that, but, but it's, you

know, and he's very much a perfectionist

854

: 00:44:06

too, so getting him into that mindset,

like I think that's the thing, once

855

: 00:44:10

you move yourself into that process

oriented mindset, like what can I

856

: 00:44:14

discover by, you know, knowing generally

where I'm going to go, but being open

857

: 00:44:19

and being flexible, you know, to the

mistakes which might actually end up

858

: 00:44:24

being blessings in disguise sometimes.

859

: 00:44:27

Kourosh Dini: I think

to add to it too is uh.

860

: 00:44:31

The both end idea is that if you start

approaching things in that creative

861

: 00:44:35

sense, it doesn't mean you have to

abandon the the architecture mindset.

862

: 00:44:39

Fuschia Sirois: No.

863

: 00:44:39

Kourosh Dini: In fact, in fact,

uh, together they can be quite

864

: 00:44:42

powerful, I would imagine.

865

: 00:44:44

Fuschia Sirois: Yeah, definitely.

866

: 00:44:45

Yeah.

867

: 00:44:45

And I, I think, you know, I've just,

I'd love our, I think going back

868

: 00:44:49

to my card, I love our back card

because it has, it looks like it was

869

: 00:44:52

planned, it has the structure, it has

things, things were done properly.

870

: 00:44:57

But the layout of things, the plan,

you know, um, is, is much more

871

: 00:45:02

organic and, and just, it just

feels better, uh, because of that.

872

: 00:45:06

And I think, you know, with,

with respect to procrastination,

873

: 00:45:08

this is what happens a lot.

874

: 00:45:10

Um, with people, and I think this, this

is one of the things we, we, um, address

875

: 00:45:14

in the TEMPO too is um, what I call

making emotional mountains outta molehill.

876

: 00:45:19

Um, you know, so we anticipate and

we're trying to plan out how a task

877

: 00:45:25

is gonna be, especially when we're not

familiar with, so we might overplan it

878

: 00:45:29

and we're just, you know, trying to draw

on past experience or maybe our skill

879

: 00:45:32

sets or what have you, or what we think

others might think it should look like.

880

: 00:45:36

Um, and so.

881

: 00:45:39

As we start planning things,

we realize that we don't know.

882

: 00:45:43

Exactly how to do it.

883

: 00:45:44

Like you said, like, we've

not encountered this before.

884

: 00:45:46

Uh, and that can lead to a bit of anxiety

and a bit of a, I'm really not sure if

885

: 00:45:50

this is gonna work, or, uh, this could

completely fall apart, or this is gonna

886

: 00:45:55

be really difficult, really stressful

because we don't have that prior

887

: 00:45:58

experience to draw upon, especially, you

know, something new, a new project, which

888

: 00:46:03

is where we, we use what we call this.

889

: 00:46:05

You know, effective forecasting, we

sort of predict not just, you know,

890

: 00:46:08

prospective thinking is being able to

project into the future and to say, okay,

891

: 00:46:12

this is what things might look like.

892

: 00:46:14

Well, we don't do that in a vacuum.

893

: 00:46:15

We do that alongside our

emotions, and that's where the

894

: 00:46:18

effective forecasting comes in.

895

: 00:46:19

And we're now, we're planning out what we

might have to do that's unfamiliar to us.

896

: 00:46:24

So already there's a bit of anxiety there.

897

: 00:46:26

Um, but then we might anticipate

that it's really quite stressful.

898

: 00:46:30

And we know from all the, the research

on effective forecasting that we're.

899

: 00:46:34

I really bad at predicting

our future emotional states.

900

: 00:46:37

We tend to overinflate the negative,

you know, um, and think that it's

901

: 00:46:42

gonna be really stressful, really

frustrating, really difficult, and

902

: 00:46:46

I, I just, I can't get started.

903

: 00:46:48

And there you go.

904

: 00:46:49

Procrastination.

905

: 00:46:50

Um, because you've tried to overplan it,

you've tried to think that you need to

906

: 00:46:54

know every step along the way, um, and

are also living those emotions, right?

907

: 00:46:59

When we prospectively, um, activate.

908

: 00:47:02

Emotions, you know,

attached to future actions.

909

: 00:47:06

Our body reacts as if we were

experiencing those emotions.

910

: 00:47:09

Now that's, that's, that was shown

back in the, I think,: 1980

911

: 00:47:14

1990s in a lot of the health psychology

research where they used to have

912

: 00:47:17

the medical student exams, right.

913

: 00:47:19

The famous study where they had medical

students, um, where the medical exam,

914

: 00:47:23

of course, is quite stressful, and

they looked at their physiological

915

: 00:47:26

responses prior to the exam.

916

: 00:47:29

And then during the exam they found

that it was almost identical, um,

917

: 00:47:33

just anticipating a stressful event.

918

: 00:47:36

We'll have the same physiological

reactions as when you're in that

919

: 00:47:40

stressful event, experiencing that stress.

920

: 00:47:42

And this is what happens when

we start anticipating, uh, tasks

921

: 00:47:45

as being more negative, more

stressful, more frustrating, um,

922

: 00:47:48

than what they might actually be.

923

: 00:47:50

And, and of course, to avoid

those feelings, we put the

924

: 00:47:54

tasks aside and we don't do it.

925

: 00:47:56

Kourosh Dini: Yeah.

926

: 00:47:57

And, and, and dovetailing on that

is that it reminded me of the, um.

927

: 00:48:03

In the process of doom scrolling,

you know when people are like

928

: 00:48:05

Fuschia Sirois: Oh yeah.

929

: 00:48:06

Hmm.

930

: 00:48:07

Kourosh Dini: That what happens is

that you're, you, you, you start

931

: 00:48:09

going through and you get afraid or

you get some negative feeling, right?

932

: 00:48:13

Anxious something, and then you

think, if I only had, and maybe

933

: 00:48:16

you're not consciously thinking,

unconsciously, you're thinking if I

934

: 00:48:19

have more information or maybe there's

better, I mean there's, there's nicer

935

: 00:48:23

information, then I will feel better.

936

: 00:48:25

So you wind up.

937

: 00:48:26

Scrolling further to manage that feeling

of anxiety, whereas you then stumble into

938

: 00:48:33

more anxious, anxiety provoking things.

939

: 00:48:35

So similar to what you're

describing, you're like, I

940

: 00:48:38

feel anxious about this thing.

941

: 00:48:40

If I planned it more, maybe

I would feel less anxious.

942

: 00:48:43

But really in the process of planning,

you are creating, um, if, if you,

943

: 00:48:49

there's, I guess there's a tipping point.

944

: 00:48:51

There's a, there's a.

945

: 00:48:54

Alright, so lemme contrast this.

946

: 00:48:55

Just to play devil's

advocate for a moment.

947

: 00:48:57

I, I, I really liked, um, there was, once

I heard, uh, Conan O'Brien, the, the, um,

948

: 00:49:02

talk show host when he was doing this,

he, he described how they would plan, uh,

949

: 00:49:07

they would plan it meticulously heavily.

950

: 00:49:10

They would get into the epi, this

is what I'm imagining the episode

951

: 00:49:13

to be, and then they throw it away.

952

: 00:49:16

Then they were like in the moment and

with it, you know, the sort of, um, uh.

953

: 00:49:21

The, the, the plan is everything.

954

: 00:49:22

The plan is nothing.

955

: 00:49:24

Uh, you

956

: 00:49:24

know, and, and, and I'm, I'm thinking

about how that might relate to this.

957

: 00:49:28

Uh, anyway, I think I've just conflated

two things, but anyway, um, does

958

: 00:49:33

this bring anything to mind for you?

959

: 00:49:35

Yeah.

960

: 00:49:36

Fuschia Sirois: Um, yeah, it was something

when you were speaking earlier, I think.

961

: 00:49:41

Yeah, that was probably 'cause

it was the earlier conversation.

962

: 00:49:44

Yeah.

963

: 00:49:45

I think, you know, you get, you get

attached to a blueprint of how things

964

: 00:49:49

should be, you know, um, and it's

that attachment to how it should be.

965

: 00:49:56

That again, when things go off

plan or don't go according to

966

: 00:49:59

that, that starts creating, you

know, a bit of stress and anxiety.

967

: 00:50:04

Kourosh Dini: that's a great point.

968

: 00:50:05

So it's that ability to distance from

the, the, the plan itself, it's, or at

969

: 00:50:10

least that's part of it, like you can,

970

: 00:50:12

Fuschia Sirois: Mm-hmm.

971

: 00:50:13

Kourosh Dini: not a bad

thing in and of itself.

972

: 00:50:15

It's when it's done defensively.

973

: 00:50:17

Um, when it's done to, um, as if it were

to manage the stress, as if it were,

974

: 00:50:22

ah, if it were done to, if you're trying

to reduce ze risk to zero, that's your

975

: 00:50:28

trouble, because risk will not go to zero.

976

: 00:50:31

There's, there's, you know, so

the self-compassion, I think is

977

: 00:50:35

bringing it back to where we kind

of started in, involves being

978

: 00:50:38

like, okay, there will be risk.

979

: 00:50:41

Fuschia Sirois: Mm-hmm.

980

: 00:50:41

Kourosh Dini: let's be kind to

ourselves in the face of risk.

981

: 00:50:44

Let's be kind to, let's be

kind to ourselves in the

982

: 00:50:46

face of this could go wrong.

983

: 00:50:48

Hmm.

984

: 00:50:49

Fuschia Sirois: Yep.

985

: 00:50:50

Yep.

986

: 00:50:50

Exactly.

987

: 00:50:51

Yeah.

988

: 00:50:52

And it, it's not that it's gonna

make you, um, non-risk aversive.

989

: 00:50:58

I mean, we, we, we, you know,

we're programmed to avoid risks.

990

: 00:51:02

There's, there's very, you know,

strong, um, evolutionary functions to.

991

: 00:51:08

Avoiding risk.

992

: 00:51:09

Right.

993

: 00:51:10

Uh, so, but I think with, with the

self-compassion, then it is about

994

: 00:51:15

recognizing that ahead of time there's

gonna be risks, there's gonna be mistakes.

995

: 00:51:18

Things aren't gonna go according to plan.

996

: 00:51:20

There's, and this is inevitable.

997

: 00:51:22

It's not an exception when that

happens, it's an inevitability.

998

: 00:51:27

And so when you come from that

mindset that this is an inevitability,

999

: 00:51:31

'cause that's part of being human

and that goes back to that common

: 1000

00:51:34,050 --> 00:51:35,970

humanity component of self-compassion.

: 1001

00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:39,390

Um, then you do approach

things differently.

: 1002

00:51:39,390 --> 00:51:43,080

Because I think if you've got that,

you know, first and foremost in your

: 1003

00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,470

mind, a difficulty happens like, yep,

I knew there was gonna be a difficulty.

: 1004

00:51:46,950 --> 00:51:49,500

Um, it, it reminds me a

little bit, I'm sort of going

: 1005

00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:50,760

tangentially here though too.

: 1006

00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,790

I dunno if you've heard of,

um, defensive pessimism.

: 1007

00:51:54,315 --> 00:51:55,635

Kourosh Dini: Defensive pessimism.

: 1008

00:51:55,635 --> 00:51:55,935

No, I haven't.

: 1009

00:51:57,075 --> 00:51:59,565

Fuschia Sirois: So, you know, a lot

of research back in the eighties and

: 1010

00:51:59,565 --> 00:52:02,625

nineties and optimism, pessimism,

you know, this idea that optimists,

: 1011

00:52:02,625 --> 00:52:05,055

you know, have the expectation

that things will work out good.

: 1012

00:52:05,055 --> 00:52:07,605

And pessimists have expectation that

they're not gonna work out at all.

: 1013

00:52:08,025 --> 00:52:13,515

Well, um, I think it was in the nineties

or soon after someone, uh, came up with,

: 1014

00:52:13,545 --> 00:52:18,915

uh, this idea that there's a particular

type of, uh, pessimists that actually.

: 1015

00:52:19,455 --> 00:52:20,265

Isn't too bad.

: 1016

00:52:20,295 --> 00:52:24,375

It's actually a pretty functional type

of perfection of, uh, sorry, of def um,

: 1017

00:52:24,675 --> 00:52:31,035

pessimism and these defensive pessimists,

they start with the same premise that

: 1018

00:52:31,035 --> 00:52:32,625

things are gonna go wrong, right?

: 1019

00:52:32,865 --> 00:52:36,645

But rather than your garden variety

pessimists, who just kind of goes,

: 1020

00:52:36,705 --> 00:52:38,295

it's all gonna go wrong anyways.

: 1021

00:52:38,295 --> 00:52:39,885

I'm just not gonna do anything.

: 1022

00:52:39,885 --> 00:52:40,155

Right?

: 1023

00:52:40,155 --> 00:52:42,765

Like they're absolute

victimhood mentality.

: 1024

00:52:43,395 --> 00:52:45,255

They say it's all gonna go wrong.

: 1025

00:52:45,615 --> 00:52:47,355

So I better prepare myself.

: 1026

00:52:47,415 --> 00:52:48,135

I better plan.

: 1027

00:52:48,585 --> 00:52:51,915

So they actually, and they have a lot of,

they have the same amount of anxieties,

: 1028

00:52:51,915 --> 00:52:54,915

a lot pessimists have, which drives

a lot of that pessimistic thinking.

: 1029

00:52:55,485 --> 00:53:01,095

Um, but to manage their anxiety, what

they do is they plan contingencies for

: 1030

00:53:01,275 --> 00:53:02,805

if this goes wrong, then I'm prepared.

: 1031

00:53:02,925 --> 00:53:06,405

So if I miss my bus today, I've

got, make sure I've got, you know.

: 1032

00:53:06,665 --> 00:53:10,235

Uh, a quick number to call a cab, you

know, or if this happens, I've got, so

: 1033

00:53:10,235 --> 00:53:13,415

they've got, they do a lot of contingency

planning because they expect things

: 1034

00:53:13,415 --> 00:53:17,765

are gonna go completely off track and

the worst is gonna happen to them.

: 1035

00:53:18,395 --> 00:53:20,765

Um, and this helps them

manage their anxiety.

: 1036

00:53:20,765 --> 00:53:24,335

And so when negative things happen, they

actually feel pretty good because it's

: 1037

00:53:24,335 --> 00:53:25,715

like, yeah, I knew that was gonna happen.

: 1038

00:53:25,745 --> 00:53:26,135

I'm ready.

: 1039

00:53:27,905 --> 00:53:31,745

Um, now it, it doesn't mean the anxiety

goes away completely as some of the

: 1040

00:53:31,745 --> 00:53:35,735

research that, that looked at, you

know, these defensive, uh, pessimists.

: 1041

00:53:36,575 --> 00:53:39,875

How they, you know, they, I think

it's been studied in student contests

: 1042

00:53:39,875 --> 00:53:42,635

for exams and all that, and they,

and they did probably, they performed

: 1043

00:53:42,635 --> 00:53:47,315

just as well as the optimists, but

they weren't as happy, you know, so

: 1044

00:53:47,585 --> 00:53:49,025

there's a cost of wellbeing there.

: 1045

00:53:49,025 --> 00:53:52,805

But I just sort of going back to you

saying if you're planning, you know

: 1046

00:53:53,835 --> 00:53:57,645

um, if you're planning ahead and

thinking things are gonna go wrong, not

: 1047

00:53:57,645 --> 00:54:02,025

in a completely defensive, pessimistic

way, right, which is a bit extreme,

: 1048

00:54:02,115 --> 00:54:04,365

but somewhere in the middle ground

there where you kind of think, you

: 1049

00:54:04,365 --> 00:54:05,955

know what, there are gonna be problems.

: 1050

00:54:06,015 --> 00:54:09,585

I think you can still be optimistic

and you might have a little bit of

: 1051

00:54:09,585 --> 00:54:13,605

that defensive, pessimistic planning

to say, I've got some contingencies.

: 1052

00:54:13,995 --> 00:54:16,785

You know, if this doesn't work

out and I don't get the job, I'm

: 1053

00:54:16,785 --> 00:54:18,075

not gonna beat myself up about it.

: 1054

00:54:18,075 --> 00:54:20,685

Like, you can kind of

do a little bit of that.

: 1055

00:54:20,775 --> 00:54:21,195

Um.

: 1056

00:54:22,020 --> 00:54:27,030

You know, if then planning around how your

reactions will be and having the, then

: 1057

00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:29,280

being a self-compassionate response maybe.

: 1058

00:54:30,385 --> 00:54:30,725

Kourosh Dini: Fuschia.

: 1059

00:54:30,725 --> 00:54:31,755

This has all been wonderful.

: 1060

00:54:31,755 --> 00:54:33,330

I'd love to keep, keep on going.

: 1061

00:54:33,330 --> 00:54:34,895

I think we gotta start wrapping it up.

: 1062

00:54:35,655 --> 00:54:37,725

Um, but this, this is great.

: 1063

00:54:37,995 --> 00:54:42,225

Uh, uh, if, if people would like

to find you, if, if you'd like to,

: 1064

00:54:42,255 --> 00:54:45,885

how, how might people do so what,

what, what do you have going on?

: 1065

00:54:45,885 --> 00:54:47,475

Please, uh, please let us know here.

: 1066

00:54:47,535 --> 00:54:48,015

What do you think?

: 1067

00:54:48,015 --> 00:54:48,075

Uh.

: 1068

00:54:48,525 --> 00:54:51,975

Fuschia Sirois: Yeah, so I, I mean,

I've got most of my, uh, resources

: 1069

00:54:51,975 --> 00:54:56,445

around procrastination and, and the,

um, the TEMPO will be launched sometime

: 1070

00:54:56,450 --> 00:54:59,055

in the next month and there'll be

a link up there so people can just,

: 1071

00:54:59,085 --> 00:55:02,925

uh, look me up at, um, uch wa.com.

: 1072

00:55:03,390 --> 00:55:07,650

Um, I kept the website URL, short and

sweet so people could find me there,

: 1073

00:55:07,650 --> 00:55:11,790

but I've got a lot of resources,

uh, other, uh, some animations

: 1074

00:55:11,790 --> 00:55:15,390

that explain some explainers around

procrastination and how to manage it.

: 1075

00:55:15,390 --> 00:55:19,560

And of course, there'll be the link to

the TEMPO, which, uh, will be free to, for

: 1076

00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:24,900

people to, uh, to use after they register,

um, sometime within the next month or so.

: 1077

00:55:26,235 --> 00:55:27,495

Kourosh Dini: That all sounds fantastic.

: 1078

00:55:27,885 --> 00:55:31,455

Cia, thank you so much for, for being

here and, and for, uh, having, I,

: 1079

00:55:31,455 --> 00:55:32,745

I've enjoyed this discussion with you.

: 1080

00:55:32,745 --> 00:55:33,375

This has been great.

: 1081

00:55:33,855 --> 00:55:34,215

So,

: 1082

00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:35,160

Fuschia Sirois: Oh, thank you.

: 1083

00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:36,270

It was a wonderful discussion.